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	<title>Comments on: Eruption In the Godblogosphere</title>
	<link>http://www.article6blog.com/2008/05/02/eruption-in-the-godblogosphere/</link>
	<description>Religion in the 2008 Presidential Campaign: Commentary by an Evangelical Christian and a Mormon</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 03:37:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: coltakashi</title>
		<link>http://www.article6blog.com/2008/05/02/eruption-in-the-godblogosphere/#comment-12576</link>
		<dc:creator>coltakashi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 01:51:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.article6blog.com/2008/05/02/eruption-in-the-godblogosphere/#comment-12576</guid>
		<description>John said: "But of course when I view this in purely religious terms, from my viewpoint, a Mormon conversion is a 'soul lost' (although God has a lot of time left to redeem us), as I am sure Mormons feel vice versa."

Well, actually, since LDS theology sees gradations in heaven, LDS would view a person who had been on a negative path (e.g. sexual promiscuity, alcohol abuse, mistreatment of spouse) but then converted to a faith which changed his behavior and his desire to know and be with God and Christ as a definite progression forward toward a much better state in eternity and an escape from an extended period of suffering in "hell" (what Mormons call "Spirit Prison") contemplating his sins and realizing how he hurt himself and others and rejected a loving God.  So the official LDS view of someone converted in that way to another denomination would be very positive.  The LDS expect that the good people of the earth (like John) will receive in heaven everything they expect to have there, including experiencing the reality of Christ, fellowship with others who accept Christ, a lack of all suffering, and an opportunity to praise God eternally for their salvation.  

What the LDS expect for themselves, if they are consistent in their faithfulness and the covenants they have made, is an even greater degree of reward in the eternities.  The belief they can have such a blessing through the grace of Christ is not arrogant since they sacrifice extensively, including for many two full years of their lives, to offer the same blessings to every other person willing to listen.  They also seek to offer that opportunity to all mankind through identifying persons who have lived and died who may decide, between the time of death and resurrection, to fully embrace that opportunity, and performing on earth baptism and the other ordinances that are involved in preparing for those blessings, which the individual can ratify or not at his option.  This is the work that Mormons perform in their temples.  In both cases, Mormons only seek to offer the opportunity.  People are free to accept or reject the message.  Good people who reject the LDS message will definitely NOT be "lost souls" or suffer the torments of hell.  They will still be saved through their faith in Christ, through their following their conscience which is God's voice in their ears.  

To summarize, if EVERY American voluntarily chose to become either a Mormon or a Traditional Christian, it would improve the salvific prospects of millions, and improve both their happiness on earth and in eternity, in the eyes of the Mormons.  It would also improve, automatically, the political choices of Americans on issues of moral weight, like abortion.   

So there appears to be an asymmetry here.  Presbyterians may think Mormons are (at least currently) "lost souls", but Mormons do NOT view Presbyterians that way.  

For that matter, it seems to me personally that Mormons actually meet the minimum requirements for salvation as expressed in at least some traditional Christian denominations, many of which assert that the only requirement for salvation is sincere reliance on Christ as Savior.  The assertion of that reliance for Mormons is part of baptism and it is renewed in the weekly Sacrament of the Lord's Supper.  Then there are all the Mormons who used to be members of other Christian denominations, a third to a half of them.  Many of those denominations assert that salvation, once obtained through faith in Christ, is not lost.  Presumably that would apply to each new convert to the LDS Church from those denominations.   This is not an argument for the superiority of Mormonism over other denominations, simply a reminder to all that the aspects of LDS doctrine that diverge from traditional Christianity do not negate the reality that Mormons are Bible believing worshipers of Christ as their resurrected Savior and as Jehovah, the Creator.  Exactly how one believes that, and lives faithful to that belief, and still is a "lost soul", is a mystery to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John said: &#8220;But of course when I view this in purely religious terms, from my viewpoint, a Mormon conversion is a &#8217;soul lost&#8217; (although God has a lot of time left to redeem us), as I am sure Mormons feel vice versa.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, actually, since LDS theology sees gradations in heaven, LDS would view a person who had been on a negative path (e.g. sexual promiscuity, alcohol abuse, mistreatment of spouse) but then converted to a faith which changed his behavior and his desire to know and be with God and Christ as a definite progression forward toward a much better state in eternity and an escape from an extended period of suffering in &#8220;hell&#8221; (what Mormons call &#8220;Spirit Prison&#8221;) contemplating his sins and realizing how he hurt himself and others and rejected a loving God.  So the official LDS view of someone converted in that way to another denomination would be very positive.  The LDS expect that the good people of the earth (like John) will receive in heaven everything they expect to have there, including experiencing the reality of Christ, fellowship with others who accept Christ, a lack of all suffering, and an opportunity to praise God eternally for their salvation.  </p>
<p>What the LDS expect for themselves, if they are consistent in their faithfulness and the covenants they have made, is an even greater degree of reward in the eternities.  The belief they can have such a blessing through the grace of Christ is not arrogant since they sacrifice extensively, including for many two full years of their lives, to offer the same blessings to every other person willing to listen.  They also seek to offer that opportunity to all mankind through identifying persons who have lived and died who may decide, between the time of death and resurrection, to fully embrace that opportunity, and performing on earth baptism and the other ordinances that are involved in preparing for those blessings, which the individual can ratify or not at his option.  This is the work that Mormons perform in their temples.  In both cases, Mormons only seek to offer the opportunity.  People are free to accept or reject the message.  Good people who reject the LDS message will definitely NOT be &#8220;lost souls&#8221; or suffer the torments of hell.  They will still be saved through their faith in Christ, through their following their conscience which is God&#8217;s voice in their ears.  </p>
<p>To summarize, if EVERY American voluntarily chose to become either a Mormon or a Traditional Christian, it would improve the salvific prospects of millions, and improve both their happiness on earth and in eternity, in the eyes of the Mormons.  It would also improve, automatically, the political choices of Americans on issues of moral weight, like abortion.   </p>
<p>So there appears to be an asymmetry here.  Presbyterians may think Mormons are (at least currently) &#8220;lost souls&#8221;, but Mormons do NOT view Presbyterians that way.  </p>
<p>For that matter, it seems to me personally that Mormons actually meet the minimum requirements for salvation as expressed in at least some traditional Christian denominations, many of which assert that the only requirement for salvation is sincere reliance on Christ as Savior.  The assertion of that reliance for Mormons is part of baptism and it is renewed in the weekly Sacrament of the Lord&#8217;s Supper.  Then there are all the Mormons who used to be members of other Christian denominations, a third to a half of them.  Many of those denominations assert that salvation, once obtained through faith in Christ, is not lost.  Presumably that would apply to each new convert to the LDS Church from those denominations.   This is not an argument for the superiority of Mormonism over other denominations, simply a reminder to all that the aspects of LDS doctrine that diverge from traditional Christianity do not negate the reality that Mormons are Bible believing worshipers of Christ as their resurrected Savior and as Jehovah, the Creator.  Exactly how one believes that, and lives faithful to that belief, and still is a &#8220;lost soul&#8221;, is a mystery to me.</p>
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		<title>By: pj</title>
		<link>http://www.article6blog.com/2008/05/02/eruption-in-the-godblogosphere/#comment-12571</link>
		<dc:creator>pj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 21:38:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.article6blog.com/2008/05/02/eruption-in-the-godblogosphere/#comment-12571</guid>
		<description>I once attended a church with a friend and the pastor spent way too much time on political issues. While I agreed with most of what he said, I was extremely uncomfortable with him saying what he did on a Sunday morning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I once attended a church with a friend and the pastor spent way too much time on political issues. While I agreed with most of what he said, I was extremely uncomfortable with him saying what he did on a Sunday morning.</p>
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		<title>By: jmh</title>
		<link>http://www.article6blog.com/2008/05/02/eruption-in-the-godblogosphere/#comment-12570</link>
		<dc:creator>jmh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 17:32:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.article6blog.com/2008/05/02/eruption-in-the-godblogosphere/#comment-12570</guid>
		<description>Amen, Phil!
In my April 4 comments to another post I wrote,"...  that it was the job of the religous community to create a godly people who can be an influence for good in the secular community."
I have becoming increasingly concerned over what I consider to be a misguided focus on the particular theology of candidates for political office. 
I do not want theology to become the next flag pin...potentially a symbol, with little or nothing but political expediency behind it. Don't get me wrong, I am not against the flag pin, but like many other things, when it is not a reflection of genuine feeling, it leaves a bad taste and leads to cynicism. I have been worried that religion ( or the "right" religion) will be one of those things a candidate has to put on in order to be elected.
I am happy to discover that there seems to be a growing chorus of voices in the Art. VI wildnerness concerned about the direction we have been heading- now if only there are a commensurate number of ears to heed the message!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen, Phil!<br />
In my April 4 comments to another post I wrote,&#8221;&#8230;  that it was the job of the religous community to create a godly people who can be an influence for good in the secular community.&#8221;<br />
I have becoming increasingly concerned over what I consider to be a misguided focus on the particular theology of candidates for political office.<br />
I do not want theology to become the next flag pin&#8230;potentially a symbol, with little or nothing but political expediency behind it. Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I am not against the flag pin, but like many other things, when it is not a reflection of genuine feeling, it leaves a bad taste and leads to cynicism. I have been worried that religion ( or the &#8220;right&#8221; religion) will be one of those things a candidate has to put on in order to be elected.<br />
I am happy to discover that there seems to be a growing chorus of voices in the Art. VI wildnerness concerned about the direction we have been heading- now if only there are a commensurate number of ears to heed the message!</p>
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		<title>By: cioppino</title>
		<link>http://www.article6blog.com/2008/05/02/eruption-in-the-godblogosphere/#comment-12569</link>
		<dc:creator>cioppino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 16:14:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.article6blog.com/2008/05/02/eruption-in-the-godblogosphere/#comment-12569</guid>
		<description>Great article, John. I appreciate your insights. And Lowell's addendum was perfect.

I would, however, disagree with one statement: 

&lt;blockquote&gt;(In Utah, the primary association [with the word "Evangelical"] is likely to be highly uncomplimentary, but I think that is somewhat understandable.)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You seem to be assuming that Utah residents have something against Evangelicals. Now I'll admit that Mike Huckabee is not my favorite politician, and some of his followers crossed a few lines they should not have, but I can hardly hold the entire Evangelical movement responsible for a few black sheep.

In my neighborhood in a suburb of Salt Lake City, there is an Evangelical church. The pastor is a fine man who cares not only for his congregation, but also for the community. He meets with local LDS leaders about once a month for breakfast or lunch, and they discuss the needs of the people in our little corner of God's vienyard. The Evangelical congregation has joined with LDS congregations for a musical event, and for a couple of humanitarian projects to benefit local charities. I happen to vote at that Evangelical church, and I thank the people there for donating the use of their church for civic service.

I know people who are Evangelicals in Utah, and they are nice people -- I think they even like me. Although your comment was said somewhat in jest, John, be careful not to paint Utahns with  the identity politics brush you so rightly decry in other contexts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article, John. I appreciate your insights. And Lowell&#8217;s addendum was perfect.</p>
<p>I would, however, disagree with one statement: </p>
<blockquote><p>(In Utah, the primary association [with the word &#8220;Evangelical&#8221;] is likely to be highly uncomplimentary, but I think that is somewhat understandable.)</p></blockquote>
<p>You seem to be assuming that Utah residents have something against Evangelicals. Now I&#8217;ll admit that Mike Huckabee is not my favorite politician, and some of his followers crossed a few lines they should not have, but I can hardly hold the entire Evangelical movement responsible for a few black sheep.</p>
<p>In my neighborhood in a suburb of Salt Lake City, there is an Evangelical church. The pastor is a fine man who cares not only for his congregation, but also for the community. He meets with local LDS leaders about once a month for breakfast or lunch, and they discuss the needs of the people in our little corner of God&#8217;s vienyard. The Evangelical congregation has joined with LDS congregations for a musical event, and for a couple of humanitarian projects to benefit local charities. I happen to vote at that Evangelical church, and I thank the people there for donating the use of their church for civic service.</p>
<p>I know people who are Evangelicals in Utah, and they are nice people &#8212; I think they even like me. Although your comment was said somewhat in jest, John, be careful not to paint Utahns with  the identity politics brush you so rightly decry in other contexts.</p>
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